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Detailed Minutes of July 10th meeting
Posted by: servelots Member of Group STM
Updated: 2004-10-11 20:42:45
Category: IT and Society > Meetings > Minutes
 
Meeting Minutes
Date 10-07-2004
Minute Taker (s) Muthatha Ramanathan , Ram Krishnamurthy
Minutes Minutes of the First Meeting on 10th July, 2004

Started at 4:40 pm with 17-18 people. More people streamed in later.
Tea and biscuits were served by Anand and Ashok.
Quick round of introductions.

Subbu and Dinesh started off by talking of each of their backgrounds and motivations for organizing this collective.

Subbu: got into computers when he was in the 9th standard. Was fascinated by AI at that time and the idea of having machines think/do things that humans did. Got into CS at IIT Kanpur in 1991. There was no real learning about technology and society there. When at University of Wisconsin, Madison, did a minor in History of Science and Technology. The course on Technology instilled the idea that technology is not an isolated thing and that it is as much a social and political tool and works in those contexts. Involvement with Asha, Friends of River Narmada, and other socio-political issues led to a questioning of the computer science work and project he was involved with. Returning to India, noticed the disparity in incomes, and lifestyles, and the pressures to conform in terms of taking of a high-paying MNC job and leading a corresponding lifestyle. Also wondered how people (not in IT or related areas) can afford the phenomenal rents and the high cost of living. The latest trigger for the idea of this group was when Manoj mentioned how some M.Tech student did some irrelevant project - reading a paper published by someone in the US, and reimplementing that work. He wondered whether more useful work can be done by these students. After that, wondered whether there can be spaces where one can be more critical of the IT field/sector, reflect on how it is impacting society at different scales, whether this space can also foster projects that are more relevant and useful to immediate society. On the other hand, had also noticed how some activists/NGOs tend to be knee-jerk dismissive of IT. So, the idea for a more inclusive, but, critical and reflective space was around.

Dinesh: was into programming research but had to give attention to a bug inside him - a bug to do something immediately relevant to society. He was interested in a low cost initiative so it had to be in India. He started off in 1999 by placing one ad in the newspapers. He received 600-700 applications which he then narrowed down to 20. In the interviews none of the applicants could answer fundamental questions in CS. To Dinesh this is a clear indication of the state of India's education system. He calls it a type of digital divide - a vicious cycle. There aren't good teachers, and poorly trained students become (worse) teachers. Dinesh went on to provide more examples to explain his frustrations with the IT scenario in general.
Example 2: He attended the 'Development by Design' conference in India and was disillusioned to see that it was just another conference. Several big names (including the MIT VP) participated, but only came in to give talks and leave in a hurry. This illustrates that what is happening in development is very top down. On the other hand the Bangalore Linux conference was very bottom up. However, bottom up actions were oriented towards how to get out of the pit and move upwards. This does not really disturb the status quo.
Example 3: He visited the organization that created the Nudi software. Use of this software has been made mandatory in all Karnataka government organizations and it only runs on MS Windows. He asked the organization about the implications of this rule for widening MS monopoly...but he didn' t get the impression that they had thought about this.
Example 4: Dinesh visited the computer science department in his alma mater as he knew some faculty there and wanted to pursue collaboration with them to develop open source software. To his surprise the Head of the Department asked him what open source meant! This also goes to reveal the poor quality of computer education in India. Dinesh found it very difficult to get the faculty interested in his project.
Example 5: The banning of yahoo groups also reveals a poor understanding of how technology works.

There seems to be a great hype about IT projects in rural areas. Why not projects like this in Bangalore city as well?

Is it possible to create a space wherein indulgers (of IT) and doubters can dialogue? A space for critical reflection as opposed to just airing grievances or celebrating technology. Can we create a dialogue between techno savvy people and socially savvy people? An interdisciplinary group? A cross sectoral group (i.e. academics, practitioners, lay people, technocrats, etc.,)?

Shivaprasad: Works at Infosys (not a techie though, but as a manager). Comes from an industry background where business interests are given topmost priority. He wonders aloud about a place for ethics in such a setting and is at this meeting to gain an understanding of what other needs or priorities IT companies should pay attention to.

Jogi: Not much experience with IT. Comes from a classical industrial design background, and chose to work in the artisan sector. He focused his efforts towards generating new jobs. His interests lie in the potential of IT in the rural context. He views Knowledge as a material that can be converted into hardware (such as artifacts, products). He is interested in smaller knowledge such as knowledge of daily health practices, etc., He would like to explore how IT can shape new digital products that use such small knowledge, and thinks this is a promising direction. He has experience in teaching and has conducted workshops in NID with new media students. Jogi invites those who would like to collaborate with him.

Guru: Works for 'IT for Change'. He talked a lot about what 'IT for Change' is all about. Much of that is not documented here as it is all probably available on the organisation's website. The development sector and IT sector are largely disconnected despite all the IT hype. 'IT for Change' tries to bridge this gap. They work in two areas: research, writing and advocacy; and programmes. As part of their research activities they organized a 4 day workshop in NIAS to explore how civil society can use IT for advocacy. They also maintain a database (updated quarterly) of all IT for development projects. They believe that e-governance is a very promising trend in India and that it is important to widen the current techies dominated character of e-gov sector in India - the voice of civil society also needs to be heard. They have also focused on gender issues and ICT and have strong views on open source software.

Clifton: works for Alternative Law Forum. Had a number of issues to share with the group with respect to IT and society. Talking about BATF, he told us how Jagannath, president of Belandur panchayat, wonders about how much say he has in local development compared to someone like Nandan Nilekani. How does IT actually shape the policies of the state? The IT-State nexus is important to critique. Regards e-governance, he contrasted the Bhoomi project with the land reforms movement. Bhoomi represents an ideological shift from the social reform focus of the land reforms to a purely technological phenomenon. He sees a preoccupation with technological issues in the Bhoomi programme. It's very much driven by what the technology can do, for example the Bhoomi database only recognizes one type of land holding whereas there are a vast number of different types of land holdings (he mentioned 1500). The IT Corridor project needs to be seriously examined. The adverse impacts on the farmers is unbelievable, specifically the reorganization of land outside Bangalore due to the IT Corridor. There has been no involvement of panchayats in this project. Ultimately, in terms of impacts of IT on Bangalore, sadly, the rich history of Bangalore is now being represented as one-dimensional - it's all about IT now!

Manoj: Works as a professor in IISc., Is not directly connected to the IT world and suggested that the group widen the focus of IT to include other technologies such as remote sensing and also science in general. Had a couple of observations to offer. One is about what he calls the government projects scam. He has been a professor in IISc. for 6 months and in that time has noticed that most of the project funding comes from GoI. Crores of rupees are invested in these projects. A sampling of these projects reveals that none of them are of any relevance to society. Manoj put out a call for responsible research - said as a professor at IISc he can write proposals and apply for grants and so encouraged those with relevant ideas (small technical tools for use in daily life, household health, rural areas were some suggestions) to contact him. He mentioned the example of a friend of his in TN Science Forum who got students from IIT to develop a custom hardware to record data about weights of babies (in a rural health programme).

Pradeep: Works in the media industry and makes shows for children that are telecast on DD. He thinks the problem is not a technical problem but an institutional problem that has to do with the mindset of people, administration, etc., So, we need to mobilize a peoples movement for responsible society.

Prashanth: works for Concern for Working Children. Has been involved in rural development projects in places like Sirsi, Kundapura - projects that provide training and information to rural artisans. Interested in exploring how, through IT, he can provide rural artisans updated designs, increase literacy, and such.

Anand: works in Servelots. Talked about Servelots and the pantoto community software. Again this was not fully documented as information is probably available on the web. Anand thinks a huge opportunity exists in Bangalore as it is a city where IT is doing well and the NGO sector is doing well. We need to bridge these two sectors to distribute the benefits of IT more equitably for society. We should also look towards finding solutions, and not just focus on identifying conflicts. He wants action - so suggested that the collective focus be on specific projects.

Shailaja: works at Janagraha and has a background in software.

Gurjeet: Comes from the rural development sector - has several years of experience working in U.P, etc., When she started working in 1988 she wanted to learn computers but did not have money to enroll in computer courses. She then gradually learned on the job. She is very appreciative of the wonderful things computers allow her to but what has puzzled her for the longest time is why we need to keep changing these 'dabbas' every 2-3 years! She was also frustrated at the frequency at which s/w and h/w needed to be updated. Isn't this draining our resources? She wondered where all these 'dabbas' go after they are discarded. Technology has not reached the masses as yet. There is talk about IT for the poor people but really who controls the knowledge and who makes the decisions? For example there is talk that farmers can get agricultural prices, but who decides the rates? Who controls? But there are positive trends too - like in the internet matrimony sector. A friend lost her father, and no one was making an effort to find her a suitable match. So the internet allowed her to seek her own partner. Similarly Gurjeet's brother is looking for a match for his daughter...but he knows that with the internet the daughter is the one who has to take the initiative to search...Gurjeet views these as positive trends, positive cultural impacts...empowerment for women in India.

Sahana: Journalist by profession but currently works as a researcher in NIAS, studying the cultural impact of IT in Bangalore. Sahana suggested that we rope in bureaucrats - we cannot dismiss the state - in her experience one or two interested govt. officials can really make a difference. As an example of volatility of IT initiatives, she talked about I-stations she wrote about as a journalist, that when she did a follow up story she found that the company that produced the I-stations had wound up and stopped production. She also urged the group to be critical of the community initiatives of various IT companies. For example, the Infosys Community Development Programme, such programmes lack depth and width - Infosys is simply trying to generate interest in computer science in rural schools with a view to increasing their pool of potential employees.

Sreeja: also works for Janaagraha - an organization that catalyses people's action, civil society advocacy. Feels she is a fresher in this discussion and so wants to listen rather than talk. However it is her belief that technology should have an impact on the social life of a citizen.

Muthu: Not much background in IT...Doing a ph.d in geography ... looking at remote sensing and geographic information systems and asking many of the questions that we are talking of in this collective...spent three years at the Inst. for Social and Economic Change, satellite image processing and making maps of land use and land cover change...during that time..got to meet many researchers who were using these technologies...and was also exposed to govt. dept.s like the Forest Dept. which was into these technologies in a big way...frustrated by the hype and wanted to critically examine these technologies...thus identify with Manoj - that issues in the IT sector parallel issues in other technological fields. Also interested in many of the issues that Clifton brought up - how is the trend of Remote Sensing (RS) and GIS use changing the nature of State planning? RS and GIS can easily capture natural / biophysical variables...and social and economic variables are marginalized...

Keith: visiting Bangalore, is a graduate student in the dept. of geography at Univ. of Washington - Seattle. His research is on the urban water scenario in Jaipur and is specifically interested in studying household level knowledge about water supply, use and management; and the possibilities of creating a grass roots participatory collective in urban areas for water use/management. He is interested in exploring the possibilities of IT for such participatory networks. Feels that he is an outsider to the world of IT in Bangalore and so prefers to listen.
Mani: An IT professional. Quit work in an IT Company that was big and only cared about how many hours he was putting in at the end of the day. Was also frustrated developing software for overseas users who may or may not even use the product. He now works for a smaller firm that develops a vehicle tracking software. This brings him greater satisfaction as it is for local users and is a simple application for which there is demand. He prefers to do work for which there is a need in society.

Ram: also an IT professional (works at Infosys). Is extremely cynical about IT's use or its potential in development sector. Thinks it is all about who controls and not the technology? Has any technology changed things, really? - be it the transportation industry...etc., Technology has not helped much. However he is a techie and just like a heart has two ventricles - one for pure and the other for impure blood - he is cynical about IT on the one hand, but on the other hand feels he must keep working to make a change. The quality of IT in India is very poor - so we need to tackle this first before we talk of IT for change, IT for development...

Chandru: Worked first three years at Servelots and then Bank of America in the US. We cannot expect all companies to come out with products. Many companies provide services.

Renu: A sociologist, community development person. When IT companies talk of IT initiatives for community ...which community are they talking of? IT is product oriented, not process oriented....don't think it is ever going to be people-friendly. Who controls IT initiatives? Who owns? These are some questions we should be critical of..

Sudha: Background in development sector. Yes, no doubt we need knowledge... A lot of difference between 'rural' 'out there' and 'rural' on the periphery of the cities...we need to be critical of this vis-??-vis IT initiatives for the rural poor. An example of IT from Andhra politics - about Chandra Babu Naidu having used e- governance..then why no rural votes?

Deepa from Fireflies: Had two telling anecdotes to share with us. At Fireflies the cooks are tribal women who cook 'halli oota'. These cooks told her how they have problems and complaints only when the 'computer people' visit Fireflies .. and are puzzled about the IT folks' behaviour - why can't they appreciate halli oota? Infosys donated computers to the Kagalipuram Govt. School - the children think of the computers as machines to view CDs...the older kids say they want to become computer engineers without really knowing what its all about... shallow impacts.

Mukund Rao: writer and teacher. This is an age old question...from 20-30 years ago...after the bombing of Hiroshima...we began asking what the role of science in society is..is it objective? Is it a panacea? But it is all not bad. IT cannot be discussed on individual terms...by itself. It is just another social practice, another social institution...just like the questions we ask about religion, education, etc., Referring to Clifton's points..Rao points out that even religious organizations acquire huge amounts of land in agricultural areas. We cannot think of IT as a disembodied phenomenon...it emerges out of us humans...so we have to be critical about it like all other social phenomenon...and human consciousness is the real issue at hand! IT is a fast, speedy phenomenon...maybe that's
why there is so much hype.

John (from Pipal Tree): Mentioned of starting an IT initiative near fire-flies for the kids and rural people.

SHORT BREAK - proposal for a samosa break...but folks keen on talking..so samosas came to the discussion. Now the discussion shifts to what we can do together as a collective.

Shivaprasad: We need to converge on something despite our differences. A lot of good things have happened because of automation. IT is only a tool. It can be put to good uses or can be put to bad uses like any other technology.

Jogi: Using this space, it would be good to understand the different images each of us have of IT. Can we take the current conception of IT somewhere else...or are we going to work with the current definition (I think he is referring to the mainstream definition).

Pradeep: Wants action...not just discussion...offers himself for action.

Jogi: Wants to discuss issues. for example, should people become tech-friendly or vice versa?

Clifton: Also wants discussions..for example, on cultural issues that Gurjeet brought up..like the social, psychological 'effects' of call centre jobs..

(Ram takes over the minute-taking job at this point)
Subbu: Lets identify individual interests and work along those lines.. Concrete projects - like Indu Krishnan's film on impacts of IT...Following an IT professional...Engage a wider audience to discuss the IT corridor.

Jogi: Take a concrete IT project (ex. Bhoomi) and review it in this forum.

Subbu: Personal stories of IT impact on people's lives. Record and disseminate...

Manoj: Democratisation of technique/technology. Read up about general critiques of technology and present..there's much good research out there.. we should read papers as a collective..Muthu volunteers for putting together a reading list.. Sahana also has a lot of readings to share.

Ram: Widen the audience to affected people and their behaviours. He said that he would like to meet the people who are affected by IT (and hinted that others should also get to visit these IT- affected).

Anand: Wants to meet the beneficiaries of IT projects (think he meant IT-based developmental projects).

Bhargavi: related two stories about the exclusions of the IT sector...in the process of trying to get school admission for her son...she found that DPS was not interested in admitting children whose parents did not work in the IT industry; and Kumaran's had reserved CBSE quotas for IT companies ..as those companies had stakes in the school.

Subbu: The social impacts are not restricted to India. In context of the entire outsourcing debate, Leo had mentioned that people in the US who lost their jobs to those in Bangalore now say: 'I have been Bangalore-d' when they lose a job to outsourcing.

Shivaprasad: China's place for setting up a 'Bangalore'. Says he does not wear his Infosys t-shirt while shopping...as he loses his bargaining power. Use of the 'victim' in this context.

Sahana: Corporate discounts in real estate sector. She thinks that she is paying 5000 for a 7500 house only because she happened to mention that her husband works in the IT sector.

Anand: had difficulty finding a place to rent just because he did not work at one of the big names in IT - Infosys, Wipro, Intel...the realtor refused to entertain Anand's queries. He simply told Anand that he would only rent to people in the big names and worked directly with the HR manager of the above-mentioned companies. Even though he had been an LIC employee (non-IT) for several years he refused to see Anand's point of view.

WHAT WILL BE INTERESTING FOR NEXT MEETING?
Focus review of cases
Indu's film and discussion..
Images of IT (Jogi)
ALF?

Dinesh: Not interested in bringing guests who do not want listen, participate, and engage.

Subbu: Lets think it over..about interest groups for next meeting

Some ideas of activities to be taken up by the group:
  • List interesting/relevant projects
. lead to action/task groups [ Dinesh ]
  • Indu Krishnan's movie [ Subbu will work on this ]
  • Take specific cases and critique (Bhoomi/Kuppam, etc.)
  • Collect personal stories and disseminate [ Bhargavi will collect ]
  • Reading assignments
  • Meet/listen to people affected by IT (Ram's suggestion)
  • Meet/listen to beneficiaries of IT development projects (Anand's suggestion)
  • Regular meetings with focused discussions
  • IT and Indian language

'Return to India' has good stories.
Movie should have more impact on a wider audience. We should take it to a larger audience.

Dinesh: Open source in colleges.
Meeting at Fireflies - 15 days from now..Subbu would arrange for the
movie screening..
 
 
 


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